Llewellyn H Rockwell, Jr.: To be sure, the last time people worried about fascism was during the Second World War.
Ron: I disagree. Fascism is a constant problem that has grown since WWII. It's been well said that Capitalism demonstrated man's inhumanity to man whereas with Socialim it's the other way around.
Fascism develops wherever an economy is based on money and the population is wedded to the money meme. In due course those who accumulate excessive amounts of money use it to join with other plutocrats to control markets and then governments. Once plutocrats (banksters and corporatists) control enough money to covertly control governments the result is fascism - a government in which capitalists collude with politicians and government officials to rule covertly. The alternative form of fascism arises when a socialist ideological group manages to manipulate sufficient public opinion to seize control of government. However this socialistic Fascism is still underpinned by plutocrats who fund revolutionaries to take over government, often by force. The joke is that the externalities of government control vary in relation to the ideological propganda used but the identity and pyschopathic nature of the perpetrators varies little. The conflicting ideologies displayed by the capitalist v socialist protagonists is really window dressing. Both groups seek excessive power and control of society but capitalists conceal their rapacity and pretend they aren't exploiting the general population whereas the socialists don't conceal their intentions. Socialists often seek to destroy wealth creating workers to ensure the maintenance of their power. For instance Alexandr Solzhenitsyn said the Bolshevik killed 66 million Russians to ensure they held power. The Capitalists do it differently, they create wars and Depressions to cull millions of people from the herd.
Llewellyn H Rockwell, Jr.: This is also why Mussolini himself enjoyed such good press for more than ten years after his rule began.
Ron: Actually the reason that Hitler, Tojo and Mussolini were so popular before global Jewry declared war on their nations and destroyed them, was that their fascist governments sought to control the money supply and central planning of the economy which largely limited interference and exploitation by usurious globalist banksters. The wealth not syphoned off by globalist banksters was used for national projects and so their peoples prospered. THAT is why the bankster cabal that controls our world created WWII to eliminate those fascist governments. THAT is also why the globalist banksters use the MSM and the governments they control to constantly vilify Hitler et al to this day. See eg: Hitler’s freedom from International Debt Slavery. See: http://abundanthope.net/pages/Ron_71/Hitler_s_freedom_from_International_Debt_Slavery_3039.shtml
Japan in WWII: A Casualty of Usury? Was WWII Fought to make the World Safe for the Bankers? - http://abundanthope.net/pages/True_US_History_108/Japan-in-WWII-A-Casualty-of-Usury-Was-WWII-Fought-to-make-the-World-Safe-for-the-Bankers.shtml
Llewellyn H Rockwell, Jr.: When you run out of everything else to spend money on, you can always depend on nationalist fervor to back more military spending.
Ron: Really?! There's no other option?!
Llewellyn H Rockwell, Jr.: Syndicalist is not usually how we think of our current economic structure. But remember that syndicalism means economic control by the producers. Capitalism is different. It places by virtue of market structures all control in the hands of the consumers.
Ron: WTF?! This constitutes lying Talmudic propaganda! Capitalism places control in the hands of whoever creates, distributes and charges interest on money or what passes for money. Until President Trump recently took control of the monetary system process that power lay with the Federal Reserve System (the Fed) and the Rothschilds' Central Banks. NOW it rests with the legitimate Republic of the united states of America and the legitimate governments of the nations of our world. Once the new global monetary system being organised by the International Treasury Controller is fully implemented markets will be free and producers and consumers will freely interact to produce prosperity and abundance.
Llewellyn H Rockwell, Jr.: It only asks for the liberty that is promised by life itself and would otherwise exist were it not for the Leviathan state that robs us, badgers us, jails us, kills us.
Ron: Blaming the 'Leviathan state' for the dystopia in which our world lives AVOIDS THE REAL ISSUE. Most governments in our world have been suborned and controlled by demonic globalist banksters who owe no allegaince to any nation or state. It is therefore not enough to blame 'the state" for our plight. We need to overturn the current global bankster monopoly and institute total monetary reform that requires every nation to create and properly control its own money and currency, AND outlaws usury.
Llewellyn H Rockwell, Jr.: In the end, this is the choice we face: the total state or total freedom.
Ron: I disagree. Total freedom implies a denial of positive governance arrangements. In future humans on this planet will need to refashion their governance structures to focus upon Republican local social, economic and policical mechanisms wherever possible. BUT those governance arrangements will need to be real and based on genuine local democratic methodologies. The process wil progress more quickly if individual and social consciousness allows for less focus upon money leading to its eventual elimination.
IF humans on this planet want to continue accepting the money meme and using money it is essential that the proper use of money as a tool for the facilitation of infrastructure creation and for the exchange of goods and services is rightly understood. The money creation and distribution mechanisms employed need to ensure that money ceases to be a store of value that can be hoarded and used to manipulate and control or enslave others. That means eliminating usury and giving currency emissions a 'use by date' that will effectively act as a negative interest rate.
Rob Sutton: The binary Hayek was interested in, rather than left wing versus right wing, was whether the state uses its authority to promote individual freedom or to restrict it.
Ron: How coy?! Talk about misdirecting the debate with Hegelian gobbledegook! HOW can ANY "government" be said to promote individual freedom by legislating (and enforcing, using an exclusive right to exercise force and violence) to provide human personhood to corporations created and owned by private banksters and corporatists; AND then exclusively licensing some of those privately owned corporations to create and distribute the community's money supply?!
Virtually all economic collapses including the impoverishment of the British colonies in America which precipitated the American War of Independence and all the rescessions, depressions and Famines since then in Russia, the Ukraine and the Western world including the Great Depression, the German inflations in 1923 and the early 1930s, and the global banking collapse in 2008, have been due to deliberate actions by the Talmudic banksters who controlled British, US and Western European banking throughout that period. Pretending that those monetary collapses were not planned by the Central Banksters is absurd. The implication that government planners simply couldn't keep up with 'changes in valuations' or anything else is disinformation. The banksters determine the valuations, and whether they are going to increase or decrease, by manipulating the availability [distribution via providing loans) of their fiat debt tokens and the interest rates they choose to charge on them. In other words: THE BANKSTERS ARE THE CENTRAL PLANNERS AND THEY PRODUCE CRISES WHENEVER THEY CHOOSE. See eg: The Socialism Of The Federal Reserve - http://abundanthope.net/pages/True_US_History_108/The-Socialism-Of-The-Federal-Reserve.shtml
Arguably the fundamental problem for societies on this planet is the general acceptance of the monetary meme which generates ego-centricity, separation, isolation, alienation and greedy competition throughout every community. THAT general alienation has been greatly exacerbated by governments everywhere granting corporations owned by private individuals an exclusive FREE LICENCE to create currency (debt tokens) fraudulently called money, out of thin air using key strokes on computers; AND to distribute that currency to whoever they choose at varying rates of interest (usury). To compound the felony, private corporations are then exclusively licenced to fraudulently loan that currency at interest (usury) using the so-called fractional reserve system which allows those licensed banking corporations to pretend to lend NINE TIMES as much currency as they purport to hold WITHOUT ISSUING ANY CURRENCY ('money') to cover the interest payments they demand from borrowers of that fictional currency. BLIND Freddy can SEE that such systems cannot last very long without collapsing and destroying society.].
Rob Sutton: Hayek saw that the wartime governments of Nazi Germany, fascist Italy and communist Russia all fell within the latter category: they sacrificed the freedom of individuals to empower the state to achieve its own goals. In doing so, their citizens suffered similarly. Repression, poverty and death are the consequence of a government which has taken ownership of those responsibilities previously held by individual citizens.
Ron: I disagree because this simplistic assessment is Talmudic propaganda. In particular, the populations of Germany and Japan thrived under centralised government control because, although the governments of Hitler and Tojo were overtly Fascist, their governments protected their populations from the worst depredations of the Talmudic global banksters WHO ARE THE PRIMARY ENSLAVERS OF HUMANITY using their control of the money supply, usury and fractional reserve banking.
For instance, Henry Makow quotes from the 1938 interrogation of C. G. Rakovsky, one of the founders of Soviet Bolsevism and a Trotsky intimate.
"Hitler took over the privilege of manufacturing money, and not only physical moneys,
but also financial ones. He took over the machinery of falsification and put it to work for
the benefit of the people. Can you possibly imagine what would have come if this had
infected a number of other states?" (Henry Makow, "Hitler Did Not Want War,"
www.savethemales.com March 21, 2004).
Economist Henry C K Liu writes of Germany's remarkable transformation:
"The Nazis came to power in 1933 when the German economy was in total collapse, with
ruinous war-reparation obligations and zero prospects for foreign investment or credit.
Through an independent monetary policy of sovereign credit and a full-employment
public-works program, the Third Reich was able to turn a bankrupt Germany, stripped of
overseas colonies, into the strongest economy in Europe within four years, even before
armament spending began." (Henry C. K. Liu, "Nazism and the German Economic
Miracle," Asia Times (May 24, 2005).
In Billions for the Bankers, Debts for the People (1984), Sheldon Emry commented:
"Germany issued debt-free and interest-free money from 1935 on, which accounts for
Germany's startling rise from the depression to a world power in five years. The German
government financed its entire operations from 1935 to 1945 without gold, and without
debt. It took the entire Capitalist and Communist world to destroy the German revolution,
and bring Europe back under the heel of the Bankers."
These facts do not appear in any textbooks today, because, as with the global Central banks,
Jews own most governments and publishing companies and dominate the global MSM,
Big Tech corporations, academia and most educational systems.
See eg: How Hitler defied the bankers - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/
Hitler’s freedom from International Debt Slavery - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Ron_71/Hitler_s_freedom_from_International_Debt_Slavery_3039.shtmlMONEY: NOW & LATER - Part III (Germany) - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Ron_71/MONEY_NOW_amp_LATER_-_Part_III_
Japan in WWII: A Casualty of Usury? Was WWII Fought to make the World Safe for the Bankers? -
Rob Sutton: Hayek's argument faced an uphill struggle. Despite its enormous popularity among classical liberals and conservative policymakers, we continue to view the political machines of the first half of the 20th century through the lens of their [Ron: Talmudically] self-assigned labels, rather than under Hayek's consequentialist umbrella of totalitarian collectivism.
Ron: Be aware that the term "totalitarian collectivism" like all other ideological poliitical terminology such as Capitalism. Fabianism, Socialism, Communism, Fascism, Feminism, Political Correctness, LGBTQism etc, are Talmudic creations designed to mislead societal debate and conceal the truth that virtually ALL discordant human discourse on this planet is due to the prevalence of the demonic monetary meme and its Talmudic distortion and misuse as a enslavement mechanism.
Rob Sutton: His criticism of socialism is not a left versus right argument, but a general observation of the tendency of systems of government who accumulate economic power to achieve social goals to veer towards repression. The different political labels are just different positions along the road to serfdom, valuing centralised economic planning over individual liberty.
Ron: As mentioned above, 'the different political labels' constitute anti-spiritual extensions of the Talmudic ideological labelling of various materialistic terms like Capitalism which are used to mind control, deceive and divide humanity. Convincing human beings that money is essential for family and community life is divisive and anti-spiritual. Convincing humans to join political groups that oppose each other in order to acquire material wealth and benefits is demonic. What is required for achieving prosperity and abundance is co-operation, sharing and caring (attitudes apparent in any healthy family) not competition with a 'winner take all' mentality. The reason that our world has fallen for Talmudic propaganda is due to Talmudists having concealed Jesus the Christ's divine revelations. See eg: Christianity - Two Thousand Years of Lies - 60 Years of State Terrorism - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Judaism-and-Christianity---Two-Thousand-Years-of-Lies---60-Years-of-State-Terrorism.shtm.].
Rob Sutton: By transcending traditional political labels, and regrouping governments in terms of how they wield the formidable power of the state, The Road to Serfdom gains its enduring appeal. Its lessons are a stern warning to any who believe that a government can accumulate vast powers and maintain them for purely beneficent purposes.
Ron: This "stern warning" of course conceals the reality that the real accumulation of "vast powers" has always been done by "Pharisaic Venetian merchants"aka The Black nobility, now known as neo-Pharisees, banksters and 'The Crown' or the 'City of London'. See eg: Democracy, Deception, Deceit - they're all the same - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Democracy-Deception-Deceit---they-re-all-the-same.shtml
How Venice Rigged The First, and Worst, Global Financial Collapse - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/How-Venice-Rigged-The-First-and-Worst-Global-Financial-Collapse.shtml
Venetian Black Nobility, Roots of Today’s Ruling Oligarchy - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Venetian-Black-Nobility-Roots-of-Today-s-Ruling-Oligarchy.shtml
Black Guelph Evil Nobility by LaRouche - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Black-Guelph-Evil-Nobility-by-LaRouche.shtml
The Venetian Black Nobility – A History - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/The-Venetian-Black-Nobility-A-History.shtml
Venetian Black Nobility, Roots of Today’s Ruling Oligarchy - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Venetian-Black-Nobility-Roots-of-Today-s-Ruling-Oligarchy.shtml
Donald Trump Gets an Earful After Saying US-Italy Ties Go Back to Ancient Rome - http://abundanthope.net/pages/True_US_History_108/Donald-Trump-Gets-an-Earful-After-Saying-US-Italy-Ties-Go-Back-to-Ancient-Rome.shtml
Bankruptcy of The United States - http://abundanthope.net/pages/True_US_History_108/The_Bankruptcy_of_The_United_States_3135.shtml
Dr. John Dee: Occultist Behind the British Empire and Judaic New World Order - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Dr-John-Dee-Occultist-Behind-the-British-Empire-and-Judaic-New-World-Order.shtml
Corporations Masquerading as Government in Australia & World Wide. See: http://abundanthope.net/pages/Political_Information_43/Corporations-Masquerading-as-Government-in-Australia-World-Wide.shtml
Thus academia, educators, commentators and the MSM etc can safely pontificate about fascist government overreach without EVER encroaching upon the real interests of the hidden Talmudic globalist controllers.
In fact the clash between capitalism (which is covert corporate fascism) and communism/socialism (which is overt state government fascism) is a nonsense Hegelian ruse designed to distract the population. In the US this distraction has been used to get half the US population to cease to support and believe in the US Constitution. Why? To enable cultural Marxists to deceive and confuse USans into eliminating their national Christian heritage and the morality and unalienable sovereign human rights the Constitution safeguards. The result has been a catastrophic decline in human morality and intelligence in the US such that it has allowed for a public totalitarian government takeover by the bankster owners of the US corporation. Fortunately, those Talmudic bankster owners of the US Corporation and the Federal Reserve System (the Fed) that secretly enslaved USans have now been disempowered by President Trump who oversaw the bankrupty of the US corporation in November 2020 and has now moved the Fed into the US Treasury where he controls it.
Rob Sutton: The road described by Hayek, one in which citizens entitled to commercial freedom, private property and the rule of law might ultimately see their individual sovereignty become secondary to the aims of the state, is worryingly benign in its superficial appearance. The transition is not particular to any time or place or political position. There is no discontinuity or abrupt transition of power. The passage by which individuals find themselves subservient occurs gradually, and often in places where commentators would not believe it possible.
Ron: Arguably individual sovereignty was already lost in the US and most other nations before Hayek's time. Among other things, the British Empire, WWI, the Bolshevik coup in Imperial Russia and The Great Depression had already enslaved and impoverished Anglo-US and European peoples and much of the rest of the world. By 1944, WWII was putting the lid on that global enslavement process. Pretending otherwise amounted to tacitly accepting and touting for Talmudic global control. Commentators who didn't acknowledge that truth then are simply on a par with those who don't acknowledge it now.
Rob Sutton: To Hayek, economic freedom is as inseparable from individual liberty. When the economic freedom of the individual is handed over to the state it is a key step towards totalitarian government. Economic freedom is a necessary condition of individual liberty. Individual liberty cannot long exist without economic freedom.
Ron: That proposition is veryyy obvious. Hayek published The Road to Serfdom in 1944. At that time very few people on this planet could really be said to enjoy individual liberty or economic freedom. Rothschilds and Rockefeller banks controlled economic life in the so-called Free World and the Anglo-US, European, Soviet and Indian populations were essentially drafted to fight or work for global Jewry's war on Germany and Japan. There was nothing voluntary about the gentile global population's acceptance of usurious Jewish banking or their enlistment in global Jewry's war against Germany, Japan and Italy. Any thoughtful person who knew the facts would have realised that WWII was being fought to retain the global supremacy of the banksters who controlled the UK and the US.
Arguably any individual liberty and economic freedom Hayek enjoyed would have been related to the fact that his views did not infringe upon the interests of global Jewry. You don't get awarded a Nobel Prize for telling the truth about global Jewry.
Rob Sutton: Hayek [Ron: falsely] observes that the transition of power from individuals to the state is almost always voluntary, at least initially. Military coups and political assassinations generally happen late along the road, after the state power has already amassed considerable power, and are more symptom than cause.
Ron: I disagree. Global Jewry organises coups and political assassinations at all stages of societal political development. For instance the attempted assassination of President Andrew Jackson, and the litany of CIA murders of Third World leaders since WWII. Moreover anyone who seeks to thwart the interests of the banksters and corporatists anywhere is liable to be murdered or "suicided".
Rob Sutton: More important is the steady and insidious sacrifice of economic liberty performed by citizens in exchange for security...
Ron: I disagree. This statement is only true of societies that have looong experienced covert excessive and often totalitarian government control. For instance many soldiers drafted to fight Talmudic wars are legally and physically coerced to "give" their lives therefor. The reason that the American Revolution occurred was that the colonists had experienced many years of general physical and economic freedom AND the ability to create and distribute their own usury free "money", ie Colonial Scrip. See eg: The Secret of Oz - http://abundanthope.net/pages/Ron_71/The-Secret-of-Oz.shtml
The Revolution occurred because the Jews controlling King George's government insisted that Britain force the colonists to cease using Colonial Scrip and pay British taxes in gold. That caused a depression in the American colonies.
The nature of society is such that it eventually becomes psychologically reliant on the state; [Ron: Looong before a community becomes "psychologically reliant on the state" it has been coerced into subserviance by government use of force and violence exercised in the interests of politicians beholden to and working for banksters.
Rob Sutton: The nature of society is such that it eventually becomes psychologically reliant on the state;
Ron: Looong before a community becomes "psychologically reliant on the state" it has been coerced into subserviance by government use of force and violence exercised in the interests of politicians beholden to and working for banksters (however described).
Rob Sutton: Expedience takes precedence over personal responsibility.
Ron: Bullshit! Governments typically assume a sole right to the exercise of force and violence. In those circumstances the ability to exercise personal responsibility is constantly reduced as it becomes increasingly "expedient" to conform to the demands of government.
Rob Sutton: We have seen this during the current pandemic with the ever-present "Protect the NHS" slogan. Yet few have dared to ask why we are being asked to sacrifice those hard-won liberties in the name of a state institution.
Ron: I object to the suggestion that avoidance of house arrest and the right to leave one's home and travel freely is 'a hard won' liberty. Freedom of movement is an absolute sovereign human right! Simlarly not having to stay 6 feet away from family friends and others at all times and not having to wear a mask in public or in the home or anywhere, is not a 'hard won' liberty. Physical interaction with family and friends is an historically normal and necessary human behaviour needed for personal and social health. It is also a sovereign human right given by the Creator. ONLY slaves can be said to need to "win" such rights. Similarly choosing when to wash your hands and whether to accept or refuse a fraudulent CPR "test" or to submit to having the government or the medical profession inject poisonous substances into your body is a soverign right, NOT a benefit that governments can bestow or deny. The mealy mouthed attitude that pretends that these gross impositions on the rights of sovereign human beings are somehow "normal" and necessary and that anyone wishing to avoid them needs to win an exemption, is a servile state of mind and part of the problem.
Rob Sutton: The path towards an oppressive society generally begins with protective measures enacted with [Ron: allegedly] good intentions, as has happened with Covid-19.
Ron: I disagree. The oppression of our global society has grown with the development privately controlled usurious and fraudulent fractional reserve banking. For instance the banksters have owned the US corporation since 1871 and they have literaly purported to own all USans since 1933. See eg: An Investigative Report Re the US Strawman UCC/Redemption Process By Barton A. Buhtz See: http://abundanthope.net/pages/True_US_History_108/An_Investigative_Report_Re_the_US_Strawman_UCC_Red_3358.shtml .
Rob Sutton: These goals clearly reach well beyond what could reasonably be described as within the bounds of public health. And with this amassed power, governments seem to implement pitifully detailed restrictions as they try to substitute themselves for common sense: which way to walk within a supermarket, which products are deemed "essential" by the government's planners, how far apart we must stand, where grandma should sit at the dinner table.
The measures rolled out in the name of a public health emergency are not public health measures. They are, instead, an all-encompassing social and economic prescription for how we must live and work, authorised by an executive using extra-parliamentary measures which they argue that the complexity and seriousness of the situation have necessitated.
Any system of central planning is necessarily a poor imitation of the innumerable complexity captured by a free market economy.
Ron: The global economy is NOT a free market economy and hasn't been at least since the Black Nobility inserted their tentacles into Britain and developed the British empire in the 17th Century. WHY do economists and commentators pretend it is?].
Rob Sutton: The attempts of central committees to assign to products and services values which can only be truly assigned by citizens introduces [Ron: corruption, fascism and gross] inefficiency. But Hayek is not advocating for laissez-faire economics. He argues that there does exist a natural duty of government "planning": to level the playing field for those engaging in commerce and reduce barriers to market entry. This in opposition to a view of "planning" which uses economic control to achieve specific social goals.
Ron: I disagree. What is actually required is either the elimination of the use of money to facilitate social intercourse; OR, at least EACH genuine local society or nation MUST create, issue and equitably distribute sufficient usury free money to enable its communities to flourish and create abundance.
Rob Sutton: Britain is generally a nation of political consensus.
Ron: I disagree. Britain has been covertly ruled by a wealthy Jew dominated cabal since, at least the Glorious Revolution in 1688. Consensus requires general agreement. The British people have NEVER been given truthful information about almost anything for centuries. That situation is especially obvious today. The revelations stemming from President Trump's declassification of US government secrets will make this fact very obvious in the near future.
Rob Sutton: Hayek's ultimate message is that, as far as the relationship between the state and its subjects goes, nothing is free. That which the government gives us necessarily requires the sacrifice of individual responsibility.
Ron: I disagree. The "State" doesn't GIVE citizens anything. EVERYTHING that governments purport to "give" to anyone is TAKEN from members of society. Governments do not create anything, people do. In fact governance organisations and bureaucracies are generally assessed as TAKing some 15-20% of the productivity of their constituents for their use and benefit in the so-called "performance" of their functions.
In future humans here will need to reorganise their governance arrangements in a localised republican fashion to ensure that every function that can be organised, funded and controlled locally IS controlled by those who provide for and benefit from that function. ].
Rob Sutton: Security is not without cost, and freedom can only be protected at a price. The only truly progressive system is one which respects the individualism above collectivism.
Ron: Human beings are sovereign free will personalities. They are not a collective but they can and must organise themselves into families and communities. The key to ensuring that occurs properly is by devolving responsibility for governance to local levels as much as possible with local elected councils electing representatives to higher councils as necessary. Moreover, such councillors should be subject to rapid recall if they fail to represent the views of their electors.